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Post by carnelianpete on Oct 4, 2009 7:33:51 GMT -5
I just came across this article on MSNBC. (link below) www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33157653/ns/us_news-life/It makes you think about what we do for a hobby. There are a great number of collectors of minerals, fossils, artifacts etc. that we all know. Ourselves included. I guess this means the government can come in at any time and say what we are doing is illegal. It is not such a large leap from Indian artifacts to minerals. I would think twice before I went on public land without permission to do any kind of collecting. I'm not really into the arrowheads and artifacts like some of us are but I have a few I have found and even an ax head from the Delaware Water Gap. As I understand it I have broken the law. (Maybe not, these were found over forty years ago). As I said it makes you think and we should all use a little thinking cap before we go collecting on public land. Hope you all found it as interesting and enlightening as I did. Pete
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Post by arappaho on Oct 5, 2009 16:38:35 GMT -5
Well Pete, I'm glad you found some enlightenment in this article. Even though the men in the article have been doing what they were doing their whole lives, digging into burials and other archaeological sites is nothing but looting, destruction of historical resources, not to mention desecration. Something had to be, and should've been done to stop them. I'm not saying that I agree with the way it was done. I'm sure there was considerable entrapment involved and I'm sure their were many "collectors" that could've been dealt with on an individual basis. But if you have ever dug such a site, and profited from your finds, then you are guilty. I could write a book on this subject, and will try not to here, but it is the responsibility of every collector to know the laws. How else are you going to be able to identify the "Gray" areas? It's like Baretta always said, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." And if you are a collector that only looks for areas to hunt on Public property, then my advice to you would be, "Find another hobby." Collecting from Public property is soon to be a thing of the past, if it isn't allready. It is against the law to remove ANYTHING from most public lands. That includes a pine cone, a flower, or a rock. But, for most of those things, you will get a scolding or a slap on the hand. Artifacts, on the other hand, fall into another category. They are Cultural Resources and protected more and the laws are enforced more. It is the responibility of the collector to know and under-stand these differences in the law. Example 1: Many people I know collect artifacts from the shores of the local lakes. I do not because; 1. I could get a ticket and a fine. 2. They could watch me get into my vehicle and then confiscate it. or 3. They could come to my home and confiscate my WHOLE collection as EVIDENCE. And that just ain't worth it. Example 2: There is a site I have collected artifacts from for many years. The vast amount of pottery on this site told me that there were probably burials there as well, but I never really saw any evidence of them. Then one day I found a human jaw bone. This was enough for me to stop "thinking" there might be burials there. Now, because there are most probably burials at this site, everything I have collected from this site over the years are now "associated grave goods" and protected by law.( And let me just clarify that these are surface finds in a plowed field.) Now, if I were to turn this important archaeological site into the state, I, ofcourse, would no longer be able to collect from it and my artifacts collected from it would be contraband. Furthermore, It wouldn't do me any good to buy this property to excavate myself because it is against the law to excavate a burial even on your own property. I will quit here, allthough I could go on and on. Suffice it to say, KNOW THE LAWS. The "Gray Areas" are almost all black or white now. Joe
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Post by CKB69 on Oct 6, 2009 9:14:53 GMT -5
I have no sympathy , for anyone who INTENTIONALLY robs graves , OR , deliberately destroys valuable archaealogical sites . Has anyone ever seen the magnitude of destruction caused by these folks ? I have , and , it is sickening beyond belief . While the majority of the land here in TN and KY is privately held , the loss of invaluable cultural knowledge is every bit as heartbreaking . Then there is the garbage these " collectors " leave strewn about . Want pics ? I can send anyone more than enough to guarantee you will probably not eat for a while ! Preservation should be the only policy for these type of resources . For other natural resources ( trees ,plants , waters , and , minerals ,etc ...) , these should be protected by wise CONSERVATION . Limited collecting and use should be allowed for non-commercial uses . Commercial exploitation should be tightly regulated and controlled . Our National Parks and National Forests are there for these very purposes . Parks are for preservation , the Forests for WISE CONSERVATION , as are BLM lands . Tribal land is at the discretion of the individual tribal leaderships' . We are , unfortunately , at the mercy of the following : #1 people who cannot control themselves and their actions . #2 ignorant / misguided / uninformed "environmentalists " , who do not know or care what the distinction between conservation and preservation is . #3 Bureaucrats who have to contend with #1 and #2 , in the face of ever shrinking Federal Funding . In this environment , you will naturally get the type of " forbid everything " mentality so pervasive on our public lands . As Dennis Miller pointed out , so succinctly : " We're not allowed to do anything to nature anymore, except look at it. It's like porn with leaves " .
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Post by carnelianpete on Oct 6, 2009 11:04:57 GMT -5
Let me clarify by what I meant in saying "enlightening". Here in NJ I am very aware of the laws concerning collecting on public lands and private property. What I found enlightening was the simple fact that even those these "collectors" out west going into grave sites had to be very much aware of the laws they were breaking. How could they not!!!!! Yet still went about their business like it was not a problem. All because it had been that way for years. This is where I think a lot of mineral collectors get themselves in trouble and cause trouble for all of us. The private land owner has no way of knowing if you are a responsible collector or not. Best and easiest thing for them to do is no one collects on their property. No matter how much you try and reason with them, assure them, promise them etc. the vast majority will still not let you on the property to dig and collect. Simple truth. It will not get better only worse. Like the song says "sign said anyone caught trespassing will be shot on site. So I jumped on the fence and shouted to the house what gives you the right" In my opinion they have the right because they pay the taxes and their wishes should be respected. To me it is that simple. Ask if they say no it means no. Move on to the next place. The chance of losing the car, arrested, fines etc. is not worth the risk. Thats the main reason I collect at pay to dig sites the majority of the time or I have permission to be on the site.
Pete
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Post by CKB69 on Oct 6, 2009 12:55:09 GMT -5
If they knew it was wrong , and still did it , they have no right to complain for getting caught . Be it theft of grave goods , or , a banks money . They would have done the same thing on private land .
I suspect that the liability risks for private landowners are quite a bit higher in your neck of the woods , than in my state . TN has a landowner protection law that protects private landowners from liability from people who engage in recreational activities on their land , as long as the landowner does not charge for access , or , deliberately cause the injury . Other states are different , mostly due to a strong lobby of ambulance chasers .
It does help open a lot of doors , but , those doors will slam shut if the landowner is not treated with courtesy and respect . Old news in my book ...
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Post by arappaho on Oct 6, 2009 19:58:08 GMT -5
Yeah CKB69 and Pete, it is pretty much old news. You know though, for those guys out there you grow up playing around with the stuff, then thinking arrowheads are pretty cool, and then getting a little older and all of a sudden those things are worth some MONEY! The fact that they are now worth some REAL MONEY is why the FEDS finally stepped in. My main rant is that around here, ( the southwest would be a different situation), but east of the Appalachains, alot more could be being done to record some of these archaeological sites before they are ravaged by the general public or developement. That would be a state by state situation and they just can't keep up with the volumes of information and material that would need to be curated. I know I need to just accept it, but it nevertheless bothers me. Sorry for the rant. And what a question is THAT, earthnhands! ;D I don't know if I can answer that for you, but let me just say , the MOST important thing about any artifact is knowing it's provenience, (or WHERE it came from). If you don't know where it came from, it's just another pretty arrowhead. Now let's say you have found a beautiful arrowhead. You love it. But you really can't say exactly where it came from because it's "illeagal" to collect from there. Every time you are showing off that piece to someone you have to go thru the whole routine again and again. You have to decide if that's worth it. As far as the "chindi" goes. I've always found that as long as you believe,...... it's there. Joe
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Post by CKB69 on Oct 6, 2009 21:46:53 GMT -5
For the record , I do surface collect , and , have a fair collection of artifacts .
Actually digging for them is against my better judgement , however . Something found in a plowed field has been mostly ruined to most archeologists . It has lost intimate , immediate relationships to other artifacts . It may be an outstanding piece of history and a masterpiece of whatever craft created it , BUT , it has lost anything more than a general context of its' exitence and past associations .
The same thing happens when any site is plundered by the untrained and the uncaring .
Not 30 minutes from my house is a cave ( hundreds , actually ..). It is famous for its artifacts . It has been mercilessly plundered for decades , by pot hunters . They have desecrated literally hundreds of burials within its' many entrances , strewing the bones into the stream , along with tons of their own garbage .
They have , however , missed alot of other more obscure , poingant traces of former inhabitants and explorers . These are to be found only far beyond the easy portions .
Push up stream crawls , through squeezes , thread your way through the unstable blocks of breakdown . A keen eye will see the charcoal fragmets from their torches , the stoke marks on the walls , and , if you are very observant , the bare human footprints a mile+ from the closest known entrance .
Now , sit here in the darkness , with the murmer of the stream below you , and ponder the person who left these footprints , at about the time the Egyptians were building their grand tombs and monuments . All the while , these footprints remained HERE , as the world and time screamed along . Generations lived, loved , and , died .
I like to think of this as a gift , but it is far more precious to me . This is a tangible link to humans who came long before me , and , I should be so lucky as to have the privilege to experience these things .
I also know that they would last maybe a week if I disclose their exact location to the wrong people . Such is human nature . Guard well that which you love and cherish .
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Post by romare on Oct 7, 2009 0:22:39 GMT -5
Eloquently put CKB. Thanks for yours, Joe's and others thoughts. Having not actively collected artifacts for years I haven't considered the issues surrounding the ethics and legality of doing so in a good while.
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Post by arappaho on Oct 7, 2009 7:00:52 GMT -5
I agree with Mark, CKB. Very well put. Thanks, Joe
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Post by carnelianpete on Oct 7, 2009 12:57:13 GMT -5
Very well said CBK69. I think it is cool that it is looked upon that way by at least one person. And everyone is correct. Here in the NE it does not matter if I was on the property legally or not. If I get hurt and sue I will most likely win. Sad but true. My opinion is if you get hurt on their property your problem not theirs. Even if you are there with permission. We all know the risks of our hobby. We should accept that and deal with it not make it someone elses problem. As my wife says when I leave to go collecting "You be damn careful" and when I come home we have finger and toe inspection. (LOL ;D) I should have 10 of each. I guess I got a few people to think. Mission accomplished ;D Pete
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Post by earthnhands on Oct 7, 2009 13:36:23 GMT -5
ok, just to go on record since i didn't elaborate: cbk69 is absolutely right in his feelings and attitude toward collecting artifacts and the collectors, themselves. i wasn't really addressing the same issue because i have on previous posts. so i hope i wasn't that misunderstood and people realize there is more than person that feels the same as cbk69 and myself...and i don't want anybody to think i am a "pot hunter"...
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Post by stevebarr on Oct 7, 2009 14:10:52 GMT -5
So, just to keep an interesting thread going, let me throw out a "moral dilemma" for you all to consider and comment on.
If someone is boating on a river, and as they approach the dock….they see something on the bottom of the river. Upon closer inspection, they realize that it is an intact piece of Native American pottery. Inside the pottery, there is an amazing array of arrowheads.
Do you pick it up? I think in many areas, it would be illegal for you to do so. But, the other thing to consider is that it is highly likely that this piece was once in a burial mound, but has been moved by the water…or unearthed by it.
What would you folks do?
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Post by carnelianpete on Oct 7, 2009 15:36:41 GMT -5
Tough call for me. To be honest I would most likely pick it up without realizing what it was until to late. That being said if I were to know what I was looking at I would try and get some one who knows what to do about it correctly. As Steve said if it is not in the place it should be? I know what should be done but like I said that is a tough call. Glad this is hypothetical. I don't have that kind of luck. Pete
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Post by CKB69 on Oct 7, 2009 16:35:53 GMT -5
Steve , that is a dilemma .
Legally , in my area , the location would mean that it is probably on Federal Land ( ACOE , TVA , ETC...) . The laws are very clear on removal without permits , even surface materials .
If the artifact is on Public land , I will camoflauge it , notate the exact location , and , notify the appropriate agency . I will not remove it from public lands , but , have on several occasions moved it to a safe nearby locale if I felt it was in immediate danger of destruction or damage . Nothing so grand as your example , though ..
Private land is a different ball of wax , assuming I have permission and the find is not obviously within an identifieable burial . I keep it , but in the case of something THIS significant , I would notate and document the exact location and position relative to known land marks . I have done this on a couple of occasions , also .
If it were to be in direct association with an identifieable burial , the landowner would HAVE to beconsulted . If they were agreable , I would then contact an archaeologist to properly document the find . If the landowner was not agreable , I would document the find myself , as best I could . In almost every case the landowners will want the find properly documented and studied .
Let me pose another dilemma :
Not only do you know it is from a grave , but , you also know the landowner will probably dig up the site with a backhoe , or , allow others to do so . You know the owner is absolutely opposed to any archaeological investigation , without asking them directly or disclosing the find .
What then ?
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Post by earthnhands on Oct 7, 2009 18:06:27 GMT -5
ckb69, in the last problem posed. wouldn't you just go ahead and ask for time to excavate and document all material before whoever dug it up? are you saying you the landowner didn't want you to notify an archeologist, at all?
in the case of steve's dilemma, what are the laws for rivers and lakes? I know what they are for the shores of TVA and all (shores and bottom) of ALCOA properties: NO ARTIFACT COLLECTING PERMITTED. Rick, what are the laws governing the bottom of the river? I have heard people say the shoreline and bottom/middle of the river have two different laws, both in GA and SC. Or was it 10' into the water from the high water mark? What is it in FL?
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Post by arappaho on Oct 7, 2009 22:25:34 GMT -5
Allright Allright, Steve!! Lord Have Mercy On My Soul! I'll Say It! I can EASILY imagine a scenario where coming upon such a rare find that with totally unbiased rationale come to the obvious conclusion that it was in need of immediate curation. A resposibility I would undertake happily. ;D Ofcourse, if the pot was truly that "out-of-context" then all those arrowheads probably would've fallen out by now. And I just want to say to CKB, that you don't EVER have to worry about me coming across your secret spot. The Good Lord willing, you will never see me a mile deep into one of those caves noway nohow, nowhere. ;D Serious note: "Out-of-context" may be the "moral dilemma" in itself. Now to run away with this thread, but at the same time bring it a little closer to home. Just so happens dave41 and I got out on the lake alittle this afternoon. That's 'sitting with the schist'. (Say that three times. ) There goes Dave around the corner. We weren't alone............pretty little copperhead. And we found this, and this one. Now both those pieces are still sitting out there on that shoreline, but I gotta tell you truthfully, if that second one was whole. If one side of the base wasn't missing, that would probably be in my vest pocket because it just doesn't make much sense to me to leave something that nice out there. But I must admit I am glad I do not put myself in that position often. Joe
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Post by earthnhands on Oct 8, 2009 7:53:07 GMT -5
um...so where were you exactly joe? joking. but interesting enough, if it had been whole, what is the point of leaving it there? and what about rivers....it is has probably been removed by the river from it's original location anyway....right? great pics! that looks like so much fun! pretty copperhead! must have been guarding the goods.
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Post by arappaho on Dec 14, 2009 20:41:50 GMT -5
Couldn't find a link to this info so I'm printing this update found in the Winter 2009-10 ish of American Archaeology. Reporter- Tamara Stewart
UTAH LOOTERS GET PROBATION; Prison time unusual for antiquities thieves.
The first of the 26 defendants to be sentenced in the federal undercover investigation of antiquities thieves received probation. Blanding, Utah residents Jeanne Redd, 59, received three years probation and a $ 2,000 fine and her daughter Jerrica, 37, got two years probation and a $ 300 fine. Jeanne was charged with seven felonies and Jerrica with three, each of which carries a potential fine of $ 250,000 and up to 10 years in prison. Both entered a guilty plea in July. Following sentencing guidelines, federal prosecuters had recommended probation for Jerrica and 18 months prison time for Jeanne, a repeat offender, but U.S. District Judge Clark Waddoups stated that, given the fact that the women live in Blanding where there is a long history of site looting and artifact collecting, he would ignore the guidelines, a decision US Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman said was within Waddoups discretion. Additionally, Waddoups alluded to "other consequences" suffered by the Redds, referring to the suicide of Jeannes' husband James Redd, a prominent Blanding physician, the day after he was indicted for illegally excavating ancient artifacts on federal and tribal lands. " The public needs to understand that looting artifacts, many considered sacred by Native Americans, from public and tribal land is simply not going to be tolerated," said Tolman. "It is clear that there is a continued need for education on the serious nature of these crimes." But probation in the first two cases has many concerned about the lack of seriousness of the sentencing. "The sentence is disappointing," said Mark Michel, president of the Archaeological Conservancy. "And I'm afraid it sends the message that this is not serious criminal activity." An analysis of prosecutions under the Archaeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA) of 1979 revealed that probation was fairly typical for most people convicted of illegally digging and selling artifacts on federal and tribal lands in the U.S. For those few that get prison time, the sentences are generally one year or less. Included in the Redds' sentences was a ban on firearms, artifacts possession, and entering federal and Indian lands, as well as forfeiture of 812 artifacts, including Ancestral Pueboan ceramic bowls, tribal ceremonial items, hundreds of stone tools, finger bones, teeth, and other human remains obtained illegally from federal and tribal lands in the Four Corners region. Larry EchoHawk, Interior Secretary for Indian Affairs, said that American Indian tribes should be given the first priority to reclaim artifacts seized by the government. Twenty-two others in the case have entered not guilty pleas and face federal trials. The two-year undercover investigation is the nations largest attempt to stop looting and illegal artifact trafficking.
End.
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Post by lauriesrocks on Dec 24, 2009 8:43:36 GMT -5
I collected artifacts in Piedmont North Carolina for some 20 years when I was young and built up a large and impressive collection. Part of it was shown in photos in THE STATE magazine in the late 60's. I "discovered" hundreds (approx 900) archaeological sites primarily in Stokes, Yadkin, Forsyth, Davidson, and Randolph counties. Of course this was back in the day they plowed fields. Unlike almost all the other relic collectors out there, I recorded all my sites on Site Report Forms from Wake Forest University, and allowed them to photograph all my material, so the info was all preserved. (Much of this info is in "Archaeological Resources of Forsyth and Adjacent Counties" by Diana Gorin and Alan Snavely published in the early 1970's by Wake Forest University.) Any collector can do the same with their finds, through a local university or institution. There is a lot of talk amongst collectors about "pothunting' ethics, but few of them actually do anything scientifically constructive with their own finds. If I could figure this out when i was 10 years old, so can everyone else!
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Post by carnelianpete on Dec 24, 2009 13:18:28 GMT -5
Laurie, Well said and I like your attention to the details. I personally do not collect artifacts and I would imagine that the extra work, time and effort you put in on your finds and cataloging the appropriate information makes them even more valuable both scientifically and financially.
Pete
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Post by leonardo on Jan 1, 2010 13:36:23 GMT -5
If that was a kid who found those pieces they would probably be in his or her pocket with the copper head(maybe not)HaHa....
Happy New Year to you all..
Palei/Leonard
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